Saturday, November 25, 2006

I Retract My Claim that Richard Dawkins Supports Eugenics

Well, it seems that my post on Dawkins supporting eugenics was linked over at the Richard Dawkins official WEB site. In a comment to the post, Dawkins explains that the piece in the Herald was excerpted from an article he wrote in another forum. (It would have been nice if the Herald had explained that.) This means that Dawkins did not write the "Eugenics May Not Be Bad" headline, which is what caught my eye originally. Without that headline as a guide to interpreting his comment, his words take on a different tone.

Dawkins argues that the propriety of genetically enhancing progeny should be debated and states that scientists of the 1920s and 1930s--e.g., eugenics supporters--would not have found the idea particularly dangerous. He muses that today, in contrast, we are afraid to even discuss genetically enhancing our progeny because of Hitler. He notes we breed animals for certain attributes and wonders why it wouldn't be acceptable to do the same to humans. He also suggests, without identifying them, that there are good arguments that could persuade him to oppose enhancement and suggests that the issue be tabled for debate. (Dawkins reaffirmed his quoted words, but does not elaborate about whether he opposes or supports genetically enhancing progeny.)

Without the headline as a guide, in good conscience I must retract my assertion that Dawkins supports eugenics. I suspect he would, since he apparently does not believe that human life has intrinsic value simply based on being human--the denial of which is also a fundamental premise of eugenics. But I don't know that he would.

Still, it strikes me that debating a new eugenics through genetic engineering is about as respectable as debating a new racism through genetic engineering. A regime of genetic enhancing progeny would be a form of "positive eugenics," of the kind originally pushed by Francis Galton. Eugenics is intrinsicly wrong in my view because it presumes the right to determine which humans are better and which worse based upon traits, talents, and characteristics. Making genetic engineering for enhancements respectable would eventually lead to oppression and exploitation of those deemed to have inferior traits and characteristics--just as the original positive eugenics led directly to America's "negative eugenics" sterilization program, and Germany's racial hygene attrocity.

Post Script: Here is a rich irony, considering Dawkins' crusade to destroy religious belief (which is not an issue we discuss here at Secondhand Smoke). The primary supporters of eugenics in the first third to half of the 20th Century were scientists, the self described "free thinkers," political progressives, and religious liberals. The opponents of eugenics were primarily, although certainly not exclusively, overt religionists of a decidedly orthodox persuasion. At least as to the that issue, the religionsts had it right.

37 Comments:

At November 25, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

"Still, it strikes me that debating a new eugenics through genetic engineering is about as respectable as debating a new racism through genetic engineering"

Okay. So... why? Why is it equivalent to rascism for a couple to want to have a child that does not suffer from Downs syndrome, and to be willing to employ technology to ensure that this does not happen? Are you seriously suggesting that it is evil to want to have a child who can play with you?

 
At November 25, 2006 , Blogger GG said...

The technology hasn't changed. The child with Down's is killed.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

"The technology hasn't changed. The child with Down's is killed."

I don't think you understand the question.
The question on the table is as follows: assume a technology that allows designer babies. A couple wants a child with certain traits, for example, not having Downs syndrome, not suffering from the fathers congenital heart defect, not having an increased risk of breast cancer from the mother, etc. Why is it immoral and equivalent to racism to employ that technology?

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Jerri Lynn Ward, J.D. said...

Seth's question cannot be sufficiently answered by arguments based on humanism, in my opinion. But, I'm one of those orthodox, overt religionists who believes that children are a gift from God and that we are to "bear each other's burdens".

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Susan said...

Just because parents may have a "perfect" designer baby doesn't mean that baby won't develop problems down the road.

There are always accidents and diseases that can occur later in life and can't be prevented.

Should we go ahead and kill those people then when they become inconvenient?

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Susan said...

Oh, and many Down syndrome children do grow up and lead relatively productive lives.

I hate to say it, Seth, but you're a bigot against the disabled. That is every bit as pernicious as being a racist.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

I think it sounds like the headline was a legitimate summary, even though Dawkins didn't write it. How coy can the guy be? "We ought to _talk_ about this. I'm not saying I'm in _favor_ of it. I _might_ be argued out of it." And so forth. Isn't this a bit like the UK doctors' asso. telling us they don't _advocate_ infanticide; they just think we should have a _discussion_ about it?

But then again, if you're a utilitarian, nothing is really totally out of bounds, so I suppose we should be having discussions about everything, given a Dawkinsian approach to ethics.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger mtraven said...

This is an issue with some personal resonance for me. I confess to having practiced eugenics myself. When my wife was pregnant for the first time, we learned that the fetus had a serious genetic defect. If we had let it go to full term and be born the child would have probably lived for less than a year.

We elected to have an abortion. This was an incredibly traumatic episode for my wife and myself, but I don't regret the decision and I deeply resent anybody who would try to take this option away from us or other people in the same position. Others might make different choices -- that is their right.

There are no simple answers to the moral questions of life and death, and who or what deserves full standing as a human being. I believe in such situations it is only the potential parents who have the moral standing to make such decisions -- not the doctors, not the state, and not the would-be arbiters of morality who call themselves bioethicists.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Seth: Dawkins was discussing enhancements, such as increased intelligence and musical ability, not "therapeutic" adjustments for health.

These bring up similar and different issues. I write about it extensively in Consumer's Guide to a Brave New World.

With regard to the morality of it, we are wiping people with Down's off of the face of the earth, and yet they are some of the most beautiful human beings I have ever met. So much for diversity.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

I disagree with Jerri. If we believe in universal human equality and universal human rights, then the Down's baby is as important as Einstein, from a moral perspective. And one does not need to believe in God. This is certainly Nat Hentoff's view, and he is a proud atheist.

Once we relativize the intrisinc value of any human life, we open the door to oppression, exploitation, and killing.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

MTRaven: I am sorry for your family's loss. I know a couple who learned that their baby would probably live less then a month. Ivan was born and touched everyone in the family and community of friends very deeply. Their position is that the tremendous love he stimulated in all who became aware of the situation was worth every tear that we all shed and moved people to a tremendous degree. Loving that baby was the most human thing they ever did. They wouldn't have missed it for the world.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger mtraven said...

Thanks. That was 10 years ago and we've had two healthy children since then. I honestly don't know what we would have done if the diagnosis had been something like Down's.

I can respect your friend's decision, but it was their decision to make.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

So, basically, no one can answer my question.

Two people brought up murder of children, which is off topic and doesn't address the question. One person thought that humanism can't address the question, but since she didn't address it either, thats a pretty weak point.

One person brought up that the couple may have a limited viewpoint of the childs potential, which doesn't answer the question, and accused me of bigotry, which also doesn't answer the question, even if it were true!

Wesley feels that such decisions would evenutally lead to the end of Downs syndrome... but again, this does not answer the question.

And then Wesley totally dodged the question by making an artificial separation between having Downs syndrome and having an exceptionally healthy heart. Both are simply products of the expression of DNA, and to make a moral separation between the two is real bigotry.

Let me put it this way: I think (apparently, unlike Wesley) that Lance Armstong and the kid at my Dojo (Paul) with Downs are morally equivalent as human beings. I agree that as a parent, I would love a prodigal athlete and a physically and mentally handicapped child equally. If I could choose either life for my unborn child, I would really struggle with that decision. I sort of prefer a world where I can't make it.

But if I went either way, would that be immoral? Would the very act of making that choice be an immoral act, as Wesley implies?

I chose Downs precisely because it raises really hard questions, much harder than an enhancement would. I mean, congenitally damaged heart or super healthy heart... how hard a choice is that? Which would you rather have?

Let me try to write a better case study:

Albert and Betsy want to have a child. Charles runs a fertility clinic. At Charles' clinic, you can safely mix Albert and Betsy's DNA (assume no fetuses are harmed in this case study) and implant a healthy child in Betsy. Charles can make certain guarantees: the baby will be carried to term. The baby will have the strongest heart, lungs, and immune system that can be derived from Betsy and Alberts DNA. Charles can control other things, such as sex, or leave them to chance. Any baby that can be concieved with Betsy and Alberts DNA, essentially, Charles can ensure the conception of.

Albert and Betsy have a nephew with severe Downs syndrome, Daryl. They love Daryl very much and care for him often. However, they are also aware of the struggle that Daryl's parents, Edward and Fannie, go through on a daily basis. Having a Downs baby of their own would make it harder to help Edward and Fannie take care of Daryl. They ask Charles to ensure that their child, George/Georgette, has the healthiest heart, lungs, and immune system that their DNA can provide, and also that George/Georgette does not suffer from Downs.

Have Albert and Betsy committed an immoral act? If so, why?

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Gregory L. Ford said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Gregory L. Ford said...

Any selection of a human being's traits reduces the individual to a basketful of items for which one shops, and thus is immoral at the core. We have no right thus to act as the arbiters of each other's worth.

[this is a correction of my previous post.]

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Seth: I don't know how I could be more clear. If you have read this blog and my other writings, you will know that I completely agree with this statement of yours, not disagree:

"Let me put it this way: I think (apparently, unlike Wesley) that Lance Armstong and the kid at my Dojo (Paul) with Downs are morally equivalent as human beings. I agree that as a parent, I would love a prodigal athlete and a physically and mentally handicapped child equally."

I think it is immoral to discrminate against disabled people, particularly in taking their lives, which is why I decry infanticide so vociferously. It is why I have written against refusing to give disabled babies proper medical care, and against futile care theory, etc.

I do not oppose gene therapy and such treatments to alleviate the difficulties associated with these conditions. I do decry killing and creating hierarchies of moral worth, based on disability--physical or cognitive--just as I do race.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

"Any selection of a human being's traits reduces the individual to a basketful of items for which one shops, and thus is immoral at the core."

This would only be true if you think that a human being is exclusively an expression of genes, ignoring the role of nurture entirely. Yet, under that assumption, your statement is that somehow, chance expression of the genotype is morally superior to guided expression. That statement requires some kind of support.

Wesley writes:I do not oppose gene therapy and such treatments to alleviate the difficulties associated with these conditions.

But this activity is a type of Eugenics, one which you support and clearly think is worth debating.

You also write:I don't know how I could be more clear.

You could respond directly to the case study, explaining why Albert and Betsy are or are not committing an immoral act.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

Seth, first let me say that I'm actually really pleased to see you, if I read you right, referring to aborting a child with a defect as "murder." Did I get that right? So, there we're on very much the same page.

[Aside: Wesley, I think I may know the same people you know. The people I know had a child with a diaphragmatic hernia--not, actually, a genetic condition, in all probability. It had apparently been undetected long enough that the lungs had remained fatally underdeveloped. Their little boy was born, lived a few hours, and died in their arms. His sister got to meet him. He was not deliberately killed but died a natural death. I honor them.]

Seth, I'll come out and say that I think Betsy et. al. are doing something wrong (though not intending wrong, of course), because children should not be the result of product design, even if this is well-intentioned. They shouldn't be made in the lab. This puts me against in vitro fertilization, too, I realize. There are all sorts of "slippery slope" points one can make about what happens when we start regarding children as products of our manufacture. Look at what has happened with in vitro itself. But I think these only draw the mind back to the very basic notion, difficult of argument but not difficult to see fairly directly, that children should be begotten, not made, should be the result of an act that receives them as a gift (from the Universe, if you prefer that to God) rather than an act that crafts or makes them as a produced item. I don't have the time to argue this point, and I don't say that to brush you off. But yes, even if the intent is just to make a super-healthy child, I do think it is wrong to make the baby in the lab using the egg and sperm and DNA as a sort of do-it-yourself parts kit.

I shd. perhaps add that I think probably Dawkins was referring to breeding eugenics rather than to direct gene manipulation. The latter remains for the present (thank goodness) rather in the realm of science fiction than otherwise. (As things presently stand, what happens in the lab is that the embryos with undesirable characteristics are _discarded_. There is no question of _fixing_ them and then implanting them, or of making only the "right" embryos from the very outset.) But the former would in theory be possible and is quite low-tech. People who make arranged marriages are engaging in a crude version of it anyway. I would like to know if you think trying to "get superior people to marry each other and breed" or marriages or sexual encounters arranged for the purpose of producing "superior children" are themselves undesirable activities.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

Lydia: Such people are the best among us. But I think they were different people. Ivan lived about 9 days. He lived and died in California.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger gwenhwyfar said...

I probably can't answer this question as well as those who have commented so far can, and I think Lydia addressed the issue quite well with her last post, but I'd just like to add a few things here.

First, I don't think I would consider gene therapy a form of eugenics as it does not involve reproduction (and, according to its standard definitions, eugenics does) and is ideally to be used for medical treatments as opposed to enhancements, and it certainly doesn't change a person's entire identity. I think there is a significant difference between, say, correcting the defects that cause a person's heart to work sub-optimally so that it works normally and is no longer a health risk, and making enhancements so that the heart is as strong as the person wants it to be or selecting an embryo whose genes make for the strongest heart.

And to answer the question Seth put forth in his first post, I think choosing a child's genes, or selecting an embryo based on the genome, is equivalent to racism because both involve active discrimination based on a person's inherent characteristics. We are, in a way, saying that people with a certain trait or set of traits are superior to people with a different set of traits. When we choose one race over the other because we believe it is better, that's racism; when we choose one sex over the other because we believe it is better, that's sexism, and so I don't see how it is somehow more acceptable to actively choose a non-disabled child over a disabled one because we believe the former is better. For example, when this kind of technology is used in India and China, boys are preferred over girls in most cases; I think most people would agree that this is sexist and wrong, but I don't see how choosing any trait or set of traits over another is somehow better. I also think that, as Lydia pointed out, when we start doing this, children become a means to an end (the end being the ability to create one's "ideal" child and the satisfaction derived from it) rather than an end in and of themselves, and I think this kind of attitude is wrong in that it turns humans into utilities; I also think it can negatively impact children and parent-child relationships. Such selection can also be very arbitrary and cultural biases always come into effect; in India and China boys are preferred over girls, and in North America we tend to prefer superficial qualities like physical strength and physical beauty.

Also, I don't think nurturing is equivalent to choosing a child's genes. When we nurture children, we are not changing their genes, just making changes to their expression. For instance, we can try to stimulate a child's artistic ability by giving him or her lots of things to work with at a young age, but if the child was not born with that ability, he/she is not going to grow up to be an artist. You really haven't fundamentally changed the child in any way, you are just working with what you already have, and this is not the same thing as actively deciding you want your child to be an artist and then altering their genome (or choosing one embryo over the other) to make them that way. When you change a child's genes, they are going to have a different expression to begin with. For instance, say you could have a child with normal intelligence and can nurture the child so that he/she has above average intelligence, but that instead you manipulated the said child's genes so that they started out with above average intelligence and you nurtured them so that they ended up with a genius IQ. There is a significant difference there.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

"Seth, first let me say that I'm actually really pleased to see you, if I read you right, referring to aborting a child with a defect as "murder." Did I get that right? So, there we're on very much the same page."

No. But people were bringing up killing born children. Hence my use of the word "murder".

Again, I see no one directly addressing my case study, which is unfortunate, because it would clarify the issues enourmously. First, in response to those who do not think that gene selection is a form of eugenics, you are using the term differently than say, Dawkins would, and differently than I do. It is unfair to characterize my position based on your definition of a term, I'm sure you would agree. In general use, direct gene selection is considered to be under the umbrella of eugenics, regardless of whether this procedure involves any loss of life by any definition you care to use.

Lydia: To say that test tube babies are bad because babies "should" be made in the "natural way" is a fine sentiment. I don't think its morally well grounded myself, and that it is itself bigoted, but if you don't wish to discuss it, I'll have to let it pass.

gwenhwyfar: I think you misunderstand racism. To be meaningfull, racism has to be applied as a stereotype to groups of people. Albert and Betsy's decision, to spare their child from living with Albert's congenital heart defect and its medical consequences is not an act of discrimination against people with congenital heart defects. It doesn't make Albert less valuable or assume that he is, it merely alters the circumstances of George/Georgettes life, perhaps making them easier.

You said that "Also, I don't think nurturing is equivalent to choosing a child's genes." I never said that it was. What I said was that to assume that the totality of a person can be determined by the expression of their genes is a profoundly bigoted position that I do not hold. I think that the circumstances of a persons life and the choices that they make, that their parents make, is much more important in determining who they are than the body they are born with. To say that there is a moral difference in George/Georgette based on the circumstances of his/her birth is an expression of discrimination much more profound than the parents desire for a healthy baby.

And to cast that as an act of selfishness is just wrong. I assume that you are all aware that it is actually possible to be concerned for other human beings without it being an ego trip. Casting aspersions on Albert and Betsy's genuine desire that George/tte has the best life they can give him/her is an unfair slander of these fine fictional people.

Also, I would like everyone to take note: we are having this debate, and it appears to be a debate worth having.

 
At November 26, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

I would like to know if you think trying to "get superior people to marry each other and breed" or marriages or sexual encounters arranged for the purpose of producing "superior children" are themselves undesirable activities."

---------

Only if they involve coercion. Forcing people to do things is wrong. But I really don't care who consenting people marry or have children with or why and how they choose to do it.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Bernhardt Varenius said...

Seth, I think the basic problem here is that, while you have a very narrow situation in mind, everyone else is thinking of this in very broad terms, specifically having in mind methods that are available *currently*, and the use of bioengineering for enhancement rather than disease repair.

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with methods that do not destroy any life (whether embryonic or otherwise) and are genuinely therapeutic/reparative. The case you sketch apparently qualifies as this. However, the real concern about this sort of thing is its extension beyond therapy into enhancement and design, and the societal impact of attitudes this may promote. Thus while "ideal" situations such as what you propose clarify things to a certain extent, they don't really get at the heart of the concerns here.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Bernhardt Varenius said...

mtraven: "This was an incredibly traumatic episode for my wife and myself, but I don't regret the decision and I deeply resent anybody who would try to take this option away from us or other people in the same position."

I have no doubt it was tremendously painful, and I hope that any of my comments do not come across as trivializing that fact.

But I do have to wonder how far you would be willing to extend that option beyond children who are essentially certain to die, as was yours. This question is similarly of personal resonance to me. I have a serious degenerative disease that has reached the point of making me effectively quadriplegic. If I were born today to different parents, there is a high chance I would be aborted. Although of course I would rather be healthy, if the choice is disability or death, I'd gladly choose disability. My life has been difficult, but certainly as worthwhile as anyone else's. It's extremely disturbing to me to imagine the thousands of others with my condition who are not allowed to have that life, simply because some parents have decided ahead of time that their lives are not worth living.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

"Thus while "ideal" situations such as what you propose clarify things to a certain extent, they don't really get at the heart of the concerns here."

------------

I find case studies to be very helpful in this regard. Precisely because they clarify things in terms of what we want to forbid or allow to real people, what kind of choices are good or bad in specific terms. And the only way to get at the "heart" of the matter is in those kinds of terms. Principle has to be applied to see its consequences.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Bernhardt Varenius said...

Seth, referring to gene therapy: "But this activity is a type of Eugenics, one which you support and clearly think is worth debating."

Seth, I think you are defining eugenics too broadly, or at least differently from most of us here. Techniques that can be seen as an extension of conventional therapies of care into the prenatal environment do not fall under the definition most here seem to be using. If you want to argue that they should, go ahead, but don't evaluate people's arguments with the broader definition until you do.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Bernhardt Varenius said...

Seth: "Also, I would like everyone to take note: we are having this debate, and it appears to be a debate worth having."

But regarding Dawkin's piece, the controversy was not over "having" the debate (i.e. simply discussing it), but rather the apparent implication that there's a good chance eugenics is OK after all.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

Seth, v. briefly, I didn't say anything so broad as that children must only be conceived "naturally." That cd. be taken to rule out _all_ forms of fertility treatment, including those like fertility drugs that involve no in vitro manufacture. What I said was that children should not be made as products. I gather you have no problem with making children in the lab as products, but that's where our difference lies, not over so broad a concept as "naturalness."

As far as "having the debate," I think we have to ask ourselves whether all civil and possibly interesting debates are really for the best, prudentially. For example, I can imagine that one might have an interesting debate about infanticide, but wouldn't it be better if infanticide were so much beyond the pale that people didn't debate its pros and cons? I think so. Whether eugenics shd. fall into this category or not depends in part on what one means by 'eugenics,' but it doesn't follow from the fact that some people are having an interesting blog discussion that we live in a better world for "getting these things out in the open" and "discussing them," and so forth. There are plenty of things that I wish were so much beyond consideration in society that I _didn't_ need to discuss them, abortion being one. The very fact that we "have a debate about" x implies that x is considered by at least someone in the group involved to be morally on the table. Some things shouldn't be. Dawkins is obviously saying that eugenics shouldn't be beyond the pale.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger mtraven said...

Bernhardt,

Thanks for sharing some of your personal story. And in general, let me commend you and the other posters here for keeping this discussion on a fairly respectful level, despite the deep differences and intense emotions involved. You don't always find that on the internet.

Anyway: I believe in making abortion available without restriction, so again, it is up to parents to evaluate any prenatal diagnosis and decide what they are going to do. Yes -- this means that some people won't be born who otherwise would be. On the other hand, it also means some people are born who would otherwise not be -- for instance, in our case, if we had not terminated the first pregnancy, we probably would not have gone on to have our other children. The point is I think is that parents always make a choice about bringing children into the world. The new technologies let them make a more informed choice.

You say "If I were born today to different parents, there is a high chance I would be aborted." Well, if you were born to different parents, you wouldn't be you. If (as you imply) your parents would still choose to have you today, you are still here. If other parents choose differently, it's their choice. The alternative is forcing people to be parents against their will.

I don't mean to minimize the tough choices involved, as I said I don't think there are easy answers to be had in these domains.

There are a number of very articulate pro-choice bloggers who have more standing to talk about this than I do: Michael Berube, who has a son with Down's and has written a book about it, and Rivka at Respectful of Otters, who was born with severe deformities and went on to have a fulfilling life. Both have addressed these issues with more insight than I could manage.

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

" But regarding Dawkin's piece, the controversy was not over "having" the debate (i.e. simply discussing it), but rather the apparent implication that there's a good chance eugenics is OK after all."

------------

Actually, no. What Dawkins actually said was that we have to have this conversation, and we should not be afraid to raise questions about selective breeding or genetic alteration. And we shouldn't.

As to the question of definitions, I'm not judging your position. This conversation started as a critique of a third party. That person has a broader definition than you do, as do I, and so that is the operational definition of Eugenics on the table. It is also a legitimate definition in common usage, check wikipedia or dictionary.com for confirmation.

In any case, apparently, the weight of opinion (including Wesleys) is that Albert and Betsy are not committing an immoral act, with one dissenter. Do I have that right? And so the issue of eugenics, discusses at that level of behavior, is not imoral, nor is the act?

 
At November 27, 2006 , Blogger Lydia McGrew said...

I think Jerri Lynn Ward is also a dissenter on that subject, Seth, wh. makes two. Not that these things are decided by vote, of course.

 
At November 28, 2006 , Blogger Seth said...

"I think Jerri Lynn Ward is also a dissenter on that subject, Seth, wh. makes two. Not that these things are decided by vote, of course."

--------

Of course they aren't. I'm just taking a census of the general agreement, which seems to be that Eugenics is a perfectly acceptable discussion and that this particular example is okay. So its not obvious, in the context in this blog, that Eugenics as Dawkins means it, or as I mean, is a bad thing.

 
At November 29, 2006 , Blogger iota said...

Wesley J. Smith wrote:

>>Without the headline as a guide, in good conscience I must retract my assertion that Dawkins supports eugenics. I suspect he would, since he apparently does not believe that human life has intrinsic value simply based on being human--the denial of which is also a fundamental premise of eugenics. But I don't know that he would. <<


Listen to Penn Jillette's interview with Richard Dawkins, starting at about 25:28 or so, and see if you can still make the claim that Richard Dawkins would support eugenics. It's pretty clear that he doesn't.

 
At November 29, 2006 , Blogger iota said...

Note: Reposted to fix link

Wesley J. Smith wrote:

>>Without the headline as a guide, in good conscience I must retract my assertion that Dawkins supports eugenics. I suspect he would, since he apparently does not believe that human life has intrinsic value simply based on being human--the denial of which is also a fundamental premise of eugenics. But I don't know that he would. <<


Listen to Penn Jillette's interview with Richard Dawkins, starting at about 25:28 or so, and see if you can still make the claim that Richard Dawkins would support eugenics. It's pretty clear that he doesn't.

 
At November 30, 2006 , Blogger Wesley J. Smith said...

See my post from a few days ago in which I retracted my comment. Thank you.

 
At December 05, 2006 , Blogger Lola said...

This idea that having downs is not an inferior condition in any human being is not a rational idea. Does not human life have equal value regardless of genetic and or disease condition? Equal value as far as law and rights are concerned, but you can not have equal value in a desire for certain genetics. Some genetics are superior to others, if not why are we even discussing this? You will never here an expectant parent say, "I hope my child has downs."
Why would anyone assume that a truly moral human could not be rational enough to admit that not having downs is preferable to having downs? And why would moral humans resort to a slippery slope of killing and oppression, just by being rational? There is no immorality in preferring to be healthy and disease free, genetic or otherwise. Since when did having a disease determine my self worth to any truly moral person anyway? Their may be people who think they are superior to me, just for having a better TV, or car. People let these things be extensions of themselves. And the person's TV, and car may truly be superior to mine on some comparison, but that does not make the person who has them superior to my person. Unless he is in the 10th grade and in that case he will have more friends who want to watch his superior tv, and ride in his superior car.

 
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THE ATHEIST MENTAL DISORDER





http://scientistcanotcalculateearth.blogspot.com/


We will look at the theories of evolution in their two main foundations: the expansion of the universe, and the quantum or microorganism. To understand it with reason, thee first subject we are confronted with is God. Let us read a few verses from the Bible. Psalm 14:1 of the Old Testament says, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." This sentence may also be translated as "The fool does not want God in his heart." The result of saying this can be found in the second sentence of the same verse: "They are corrupt; they do abominable deeds."Let us also take a passage from the New Testament. Hebrews 11:6 says, "For he who comes forward to God must believe that He is.

"THREE KINDS OF PEOPLE “

Whether you claim too be a Christian, a non-believer, or a seeker after truth, we will start by examining the subject of God. In this respect the world is divided into three camps. The first is that of the atheists who do not believe in a God. The second consists of the agnostics. They have no sure knowledge about the deity. On the one hand, they dare not say there is no God, but on the other hand, they are not clear if God does exist. We belong to the third category of those who believe in God.

PROSECUTION

Is there a God? I will not try to say yes or no to this question. Rather, I will make this place a law court. I will ask you to be the judge, and I will be the prosecutor. The work of a judge is to make decisions, to approve or disapprove the truth of statements; the work of a prosecutor is to present all the evidence and arguments that he can possibly gather. Before we proceed, we have to be clear about one fact: all prosecutors are not eyewitnesses of crimes. They are not policemen. A policeman may personally witness an event, whereas a prosecutor obtains his information only indirectly. He places all the charges, evidence, and arguments collected before the judge. In the same way, I shall present before you everything that I can possibly find. If you ask whether I have seen God or not, I would say "no." I am reading or demonstrating what I have gathered. My job is to search for facts and to call for witnesses. You are to arrive at a conclusion yourself.

QUALIFICATIONS

Many people assert that there is no God. As a prosecutor I ask you first to check the qualification of these people. Are they qualified to make such claims? Are those who assert that there is no God moral or immoral? Do not just listen to their arguments. Even robbers and swindlers have their arguments. Of course, the arguments support them as robbers and swindlers. The subject of their arguments may be very noble; they may talk about the state of the nations and the welfare of society, but their opinions cannot be seriously considered. They are not worthy of passing such judgments. If a man is upright in his conduct and moral judgment, we can give credibility to his words, but if not, his words lose their credibility. This is especially true when it relates to the question of deity. It is interesting to note that the moral standards of men are directly related to their concept about God. Those who admit their own ignorance have a passable standard, while insistent atheists invariably have a low level of moral responsibility. I do not claim to know all atheists, but of the several thousand that I know, none of them possess a notably commendable morality. You may tell me that there was once a moral atheist, but if there was one, he is dead. Or you may tell me that there will be a moral atheist, but whoever he may be, he is not here yet. At least we can say that for now, we do not know a moral atheist.

NO ATHEIST IS MORAL

Recently in a College at Uk, the geologist, who is a defender of evolution therefore an atheist confess he is arrogant, the atheist said “there is nothing wrong in being arrogant, I’m right, so there is nothing wrong”. He was debating with a Christian professor who never change his good attitude even though he was being ridicule and mocked. Regarding the behavior of the Atheist it was sad to see a defender of science behaving as a child, he do not have moral standards, man who do not have a sense for Gods law, he will not respect anyone , regarding respecting other he is immoral. There were many students on the campus who did not believe in God. They were greatly offended by these words. This atheist offended the Christian professor again and again; the atheist said to him I like to interrupt you. He kept offending the Christian professor saying “you want to believe in God because you are insecure; the proof is that you have the psychological need of God, your God and you are false and have a mental disorder”. This is completely unethical using the right words immoral. Even the body language of this old man of Uk tells, something wrong with him, he cross his arms in a defensive way , he did look the audience , look to the floor and even when he smile was sad. He looks nervous and evasive; his body language showed that something was wrong with him. He made funny gestures and faces at the Christian professor. How can anyone with moral decency shuffle his speaking to do gestures and call to the other professor false in his believes and say that he has a mental disorder.

No atheist has helped you become better? Has he made your thoughts cleaner or your heart purer? Or did it make you just the opposite?"



"Regarding to what they speak”

This atheist use scientific methods of questioning, and this are endless, their speaking for sure is has not good intention. How come they will ask: Why Jews and Muslims who believe in God, hate each other and kill each other because their religion.

Muslims attacked Americans in 9/11 because they hate Americans and do not tolerated Americans way of living.

What are the intentions of these questions? Most of people know that Jews and Muslims have been fighting over their land for thousands of years; it is not for the God in which they believe it has been always the land. And that is their problem is up to then how they deal with it. The atheist confuse them as well others and said they kill each other because their God. Mr. Atheist can you put into your head that is because the land. Or what is what you are really after. Sure you have a bad tongue.

And why do you ask them about 9/11 actually you Atheist went to the Middle East and told them. You hate Americans because they allow prostitutes on the street. Of course they will say they do not like their respectfull woman to be in the street as prostitutes. But you Godless

Man understand, that their government is theocratic, meaning their believe in God is their Law and constitution, they live in a Theocratic society and as humans that is their right.

Why did you bring 9/11 up? USA is democracy. Do you want me to believe that my country USA attacks the Middle East because they want to establish Democracy in the theocratic Middle East? Even if that is truth, if I’m ask I will obey to my president and go to Middle East

And kill or get kill, soldiers obey orders and thousands of young people have died in this war, that is the way that my country is, do you know how many Middle East civilians have died there? Hundred of thousands, those who are dead are better off of those who are among the living ones, their suffering is not a joke and for USA soldiers is a pain in our soul, so who are you to bring up an issue that USA soldiers will never question.

China which is the domicile of more than half the world’s population is communist. Atheist should go there to recruit people. You atheist are in your line of question totally immoral.

I do whish that my president George W. Bush wont let you come to America and I will tell him about your videos The God of delusion and the atheist debate, because in those videos you make fun of my president. Do not think that because our presidents did not claim the rights to the back bone of the net years ago, they will never claim it back.

Now you ask: why believers hate, homosexuals? Isn’t good to see two male’s holdings hands on the streets, and to girls kissing on the train? Maybe, because evolution is not only about natural selection, but about sexual selection. Are evolutionists teaching the children of America about sexual selection, “Sexual selection is a special case of natural selection Sexual selection acts in an organisms’ ability to obtain by any means necessary to successfully copulate with their mate or in groups” Sexual selection simple means I can chose anyone male female is ok. Can you see that your teaching has contaminated humanity?

Do you Atheist hold at what you believe?

Of course not Richard Dawkins has called himself, a cultural Christian. If he is against Christians how he dares to call himself a Christian of any kind, I do believe in God I will always say that I do love God as my Father. But your stamen’s shows that you are not firm in your believe rather, you are liar therefore immoral.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm

Their line of question is groundless or they are carrying out and agenda. I think for old man as they are, it is normal to question everything as well senile to think they know everything. They think of themselves as modern scientist question everything even if they don’t know the subject. Because they live in the twenty first century they know better than those who live thousands of years ago. And why they are confused using the word religion as if it means the same as believer. According to the lexicon Webster dictionary “religion is a way to trying to reach or seek God” “a believer in God have already found Him and knows Him”. Why atheists don’t know the dictionary? Do they know Greek or at the least Hebrew languages what about Aramaic or Latin. In the bible there are tree different words in Greek to designated the word “life”

1. Bios referring to the biological life our body

2. Psycho referring to the soul logical means study. The word Psychology means the study of the soul, emotions, mind and will.

3. There is another word for life that is Zoe the highest life. Whenever the bible speaks of eternal life speak of Zoe. In a Greek dictionary you will find the distinction. I wonder what an atheist that only knows the bible superficially how will they explain that in the bible there is a word Zoe that was transliterated from Hebrew to Greek as Zoe.

They should not speak about the bible, because their knowledge is superficial, have they read the bible fifty times? have they read 4000 others books? What about the evolution of species how many times they read it.

For this reason, their whole argument is not worthy of consideration. The question is, "Are you qualified to claim that there is no God?" If your hope is merely hear something that isn’t knew, you have lost your ground already.

IS MAN THE GREATEST?

One day a young man came to me and said, "I do not believe in a so-called God. Man is the greatest. He is the noblest among all creatures. There is no God in this universe; man is everything." We were sitting opposite each other. After hearing what he said, I stood up, went to one side of the room, stooped down, and gazed at him intently. I said, "Do you know that in the past many Americans missionaries went abroad USA specially to China, they came with not support from their churches, during the boxer rebellion many of them died, but sow a seed of life “Zoe” that made of the idolaters Chinese genuine believers, when the communist took over China many were put on jail because of their believe in God, thousands of them died, the bible was taken away, a communist reform took place, everyone have to listen to Mao because communist in China as well Stalinism are base in the cult or worship of the personality of their leader. So believers were whipped out. Because they wont exult Mao over God , but today in china there are 200 millions of genuine believers, how this happen, God did it, can atheist recruit in America or in the world 200 million like them, of course not , so why you say that there is not God and you are greater than Him.

HOW VAST IS THE UNIVERSE?

I then said to the young man, "And here you are! You have not even walked through the whole earth, and yet you consider yourself greater than the whole universe. Let me ask you, do you know how vast the universe is? Take light for example. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. Try to calculate how far light travels in one minute, or one hour, or a day, or a year. There are some stars whose light takes three thousand years to reach us. Go and work out how far they are from us! And you think you are so great! I would therefore advise all atheists and young men alike to admit the incompetency of man not only morally, but intellectually and academically as well.

"CAN MAN EXTEND BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF TIME AND SPACE?

Another time when I was in Kaifeng, I met another one of those young, stout atheists. I walked up to him and patted him on the shoulder, saying, "I saw God today!" He stared at me in curiosity and demanded a further word. I replied, "You are God! If you know that there is no God, then you have to be God." He asked for an explanation. I said, "Since you are convinced that there is no God, you must have traveled over the whole earth. If God is not in Shanghai, He may still be in Nanking. You must have been to both places. That is not all. If God is not in Nanking, He may be in Tientsin. You must also have been to Tientsin. But you cannot draw this conclusion simply by being in China; God may be in another country. So you must have been to every country on this earth. If God is not in one place, He may be in another. Therefore, you must have traveled throughout the world. One never knows if God is hiding at the North Pole or the South Pole or in the woods or wilderness somewhere. So you must have combed through all those regions as well. If God is not found on earth, He may be found on the moon. You therefore must have been to the moon. God may also be on other planets or in outer space. This means that you have traveled through space and all the other galaxies as well. If you can say that there is no God, it must mean that you have traveled throughout the whole universe. If this is the case, you must be God yourself."This is not all. Even though you know that God does not exist in Shanghai today, how about yesterday? Perhaps God will come tomorrow. You say that you know there is no God today, but what about last year? And how do you know that God will not come next year? You say that there is no God this year, but what about a thousand years ago? Very well, you must be an everlasting one who knows everything about the past and future. You have to be a being beyond time and space. You must be in Tientsin and in another country at the same time; you must be omnipresent from the east to the west, from the North Pole to the South Pole. Who else but you can be the very God? If you are not God, you can never be qualified to say that there is no God.

"THE EVIDENCE”

Some will immediately step back and say, "I have never said that I know there is no God. One can never tell whether there is a God or not." Well, if you cannot give a conclusion, I will ask witnesses whom I consider trustworthy to present arguments to you and prove the existence of God. Again let me say this, you are the judge, and I am the prosecutor. I am presenting only the evidence before you. Decide for yourself if there is a God.

THE UNIVERSE

First, looks at nature, the world that is before our eyes and every phenomenon in it. We all know that scientific knowledge is the rational explanation of natural phenomena. For example, there is an observed drop in the temperature of a patient. The drop in temperature is a phenomenon, and the explanation for it is scientific knowledge. When an apple falls from the tree, it is a phenomenon. Why does an apple not fly into the air? The explanation for this phenomenon constitutes knowledge. A man with knowledge is a man who has the proper explanations.

ONLY TWO EXPLANATIONS

The universe displays countless phenomena of diverse forms, colors, shapes, and nature. We cannot fail to notice these phenomena before our eyes. The explanation for all these phenomena is known as knowledge. All thoughtful persons have only two explanations as far as the origin of the universe is concerned; there is no third explanation. You have to take one or the other of them. What are these two explanations? The first says that the universe came into being through natural evolution and self-interaction; the second attributes its origin to a personified being with intellect and purpose. These are the only two explanations presented by all philosophers of the world. There is not a third one. Where did the universe come from? Did it come into existence by itself or through chance? Or was it designed by the One from whom we derive the concept of God? You have to think and then make a decision about it. Everything that is by chance has certain characteristics. I would suggest you list all of these in a detailed way, the more the better, and then compare all the phenomena of the universe with your list. Alongside of this make another list of the characteristics which, in your opinion, would be prominent if the universe was created by an intelligent Being. Now by a simple comparison of nature with your two lists, it will be easy to draw a reasonable conclusion.

CHANCE EVENTS

What are the characteristics of things that come about by chance? First, we know that they are unorganized. At the most they can be partially integrated. They can never be totally organized. One can achieve a specified goal by chance once, but he can never achieve a specified goal by chance all the time. Anything that comes together by chance can only be integrated partially, never totally. For example, if I throw this chair to the other side of the room, by chance it may come to rest at a perfect angle. If I do the same with a second chair, it may also lie neatly beside the first one. But this will not keep on happening with the third and the fourth and so on. Chance can only provide partial organization. It does not guarantee total integration. Furthermore, all random interactions are aimless, disorganized, and purposeless. They are without order and structure; they are loose, formless, disorderly, and not directed toward any meaningful purpose. Briefly, we can say that the characteristics of chance events are disharmony, irregularity, inconsistency, purposelessness, and insignificance. We will write down these four characteristics on our list.

CONSISTENCY AND ORGANIZATION

Now let us compare the things in the universe with these characteristics. Take, for example, the human being. He is carried in his mother's womb for nine months and delivered; he grows up and eventually dies. This cycle is repeated for every single individual. Consistency can be observed. It is not a wild game of chance. Again, look at the sun above your head. It does not exist purposelessly. Rather, it has its purpose and significance. Look at the moon, the stars, and the myriads of galaxies through your telescope. Some stars have their own planets. They all follow definite tracks and patterns. They are all organized. Their manner of motion can be calculated and predicted. The calendar in your hand is derived from them. Even next year's calendar can be printed before this year is past. All these show that the universe is organized, consistent, and purposeful.

MICROORGANISMS

Let us turn to the micro-world. Take a thin slice of wood. Put it under a microscope and observe its grain and structure, all meticulously regular and rhythmic. Even a blade of grass and the petal of a flower are finely fashioned. Nothing is unorganized or confused. Everything is disciplined and functional. All these things witness one fact to you: the universe, with its macro and micro aspects, is purposeful and meaningful. Can you say that all these came into existence by chance? Surely you cannot.

IS IT OCCUPIED?

Once I was preaching the gospel with a co-worker of mine in a village. On the way back we were extremely thirsty. There was neither a teahouse nor stream for us to get water. In fact the whole area was uninhabited. After walking for a while we came across a thatched hut. We went to the door quickly and knocked. For a long time there was no answer. We thought that no one lived there. When we opened the door and went in, we found that the floor was swept clean. In one of the rooms was a bed with nicely folded sheets. There was a teapot on the table, and the tea in it was still warm. I said, "Surely someone must be living here. All the arrangements indicate beyond doubt that this place is occupied by someone. We should not drink this tea. We must get out quickly or else people will think we are thieves." We walked out and waited for the owner to return. By observing the arrangements of the house, we concluded that someone was living there, without having seen the occupant. In the same way, we know that God is there by the arrangement of everything in the universe, although we cannot see Him. Every single phenomenon of nature is so balanced, organized, meaningful, and functional. You may say that they come by chance, but it is impossible for me to believe that chance is its sole originator. The Bible says, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." Only foolish people can say in their hearts that there is no God.

CHANCE OR DESIGN

The universe has to be created by someone with profound wisdom, vast knowledge, and intricate design. If you cannot accept the concept of random formation of the universe, you have to admit that it was created by such a God. There cannot be a third explanation. The choice is left to you. You have to decide if the universe came by chance or whether it was created by God.

A DEMAND AND ITS OBJECT

One witness may not be enough. I will call in another. This time we will consider man's heart. Before doing so, we should also observe one fact: wherever there is a desire, there must first be an object for that desire. For example, an orphan who has never seen his father naturally has a desire for a kind of paternal love. I have asked many people who were orphans, and they all have felt this irrepressible yearning. By this we can see that every desire of the heart arises out of an object in the world. As human beings we have a need for social belonging. We need companionship and mutuality. If you put a boy on a deserted island and he grows up alone, he still has the yearning for companions, for beings like himself, even though he has never seen a human being. This yearning or desire is the very proof that somewhere in the world there is something known as "man." At a certain age, man begins to think about posterity; he starts desiring children and grandchildren. This is not a mere fantasy. This desire stems out of the existence and possibility of offspring. Hence, where there is desire, there is an object for that desire.

THERE IS GOD IN THE HEART

Do we have any desires other than social identity and self-propagation? What other cravings do we have? Deep in everyone there is a craving for God. Whether they are highly civilized races, such as those among the Caucasians, or the ancient civilizations, such as the Chinese civilizations, or the African natives and uncultured aborigines, they all have a common craving --God. As long as they are men, they have a yearning for God, no matter what race or nationality. This is a fact. You cannot argue against it. Everyone is seeking after God. Everywhere man is craving for God. This is very clear. By applying the principle that we just mentioned, we can see that since our heart feels the need for a God, there must necessarily be a God in the universe. Since there is a need for God in the heart, there must be the existence of God in the universe. If no God exists, we would never have such a craving in our heart. We all have an appetite for food. In the same way, we all have an appetite for God. It would be impossible to live if there was only an appetite for food but no food. Likewise, it would be impossible to live if there was a capacity for God but no God.

NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT GOD?

Once an atheist rudely rebuked me in a loud voice: "You said that a man has the psychological need for a God. But there is no such thing, and I do not believe in it." I said, "Well, do you mean to say that you never think about God? In fact, even while you were talking, you were thinking about Him. This indicates that you do have a capacity for God. There is no one who has never thought about God. He may try not to think much about Him. Since this thought is in you, there must be such an object outside of you.

"THE WORDS AND THE HEART”

A young man once came to me to argue about God. He was vehemently against the existence of God. He gave me one reason after another for saying that there is no God. As he was enumerating the various reasons why God should not exist, I listened to him quietly without saying a word. Then I said, "Although you insist that there is no God and support yourself with so many arguments, you have lost your case already." He said, "What do you mean?" I went on to explain: "Your mouth can say as much as you want about there not being a God, but your heart is on my side." He had to agree with me. Although one can give all sorts of reasons in the head, there is a belief in the heart that no argument can defeat. A stubborn person may give a thousand and one reasons, but you can have the boldness to tell him, "You know better in your heart that there is a God. Why bother to look for evidence outside?"Now what would you say? After looking at nature and the universe, after checking with your inner feeling, it is up to you to decide whether or not there is a God. But you should not be irresponsible; your attitude must be sober because everyone has to meet God soon. One day you will all stand before Him. Everything concerning you will be laid bare. On that day you will know God. But now is the time for you to be prepared. We should all be prepared to meet our God



CONSIDER THIS

I shall begin by assuming that the issue of God's existence is settled. We all believe that there is a God. As those who desire to know the truth, we must go one step further to find out what kind of God He is. God is the greatest Unknown. We must spend some time to find out about this unknown One. The next step now is to know what kind of a God He is.


THE BIBLE
In the past few thousand years’ man has been inquiring about the nature of God. Is He kind or is He righteous? Is He indifferent towards us, or is He extremely interested in human affairs? These types of questions are the direct cause of all human religions. What is religion? Religion is man's inquiry about God and his explanation of Him. Through these explanations, different men have arrived at different concepts about God. What kind of God is He? This is a big question. It is also a very serious question. We have all given our thought to this subject at one time or another. The question might even have occurred to our little mind when we were five years old. All men, educated or ignorant, have been intrigued by this question. It comes naturally after some contemplation and observation.

But a person trying to speculate about God is like an ant attempting to understand a human being. It is extremely difficult for the little creature to try to realize our life, nature, and mind. In the same way it is impossible for us to try to comprehend God. For this reason, in the past few thousand years, all kinds of people, theologians and philosophers alike, have done much thinking about Him. What has God been doing all this time? Has He been indifferent to us or has He tried to reveal Himself to us? What is God's attitude? Do you think He would say, "I am God and have nothing to do with human beings. I do not care what you think about me. I shall stay in heaven as God. Let the mortals be ignorant!" Or do you think He has a desire to reveal Himself to man and visit him?
When I was in India, I saw some people lying naked on beds studded with nails. Some walked with bare feet on burning coals. These people devoted a great deal of energy to seeking after God. What has God done to them? Did He hide Himself and take no notice of them at all? Has He not kept Himself as a perpetual mystery? This is a great question. We have to consider it scientifically and objectively in order to find out what God is like.

A few years ago I spoke on a similar subject to some medical students in an auditorium in Cheloo University. I said that man is an organism with a life. God also is a life. Man's life is higher than that of the lower animals, and God's life is even higher than that of man. I asked the students, "Since we realize that all living organisms have some common laws and express some common traits, can you name them?" Different ones then started to bring up different points. At the end we summed up the discussion in this way: all living organisms contain two common characteristics. You can call these characteristics their common expressions or their common laws. First, every life wants to preserve itself. It tends to reproduce itself. There is the ability to produce posterity, to continue its own life. Second, every life wants to have fellowship with other lives. It cannot stand being by itself. When a man cannot find fellowship with another human being, he goes to dogs, cats, fish, or birds and makes friends with animals. All living creatures desire fellowship.
Based on these two characteristics of life, namely, the preservation of itself and fellowship with others, laws of human government are instituted. For example, the death penalty reflects a convict's desire to preserve his own life; punishment comes in the form of taking away and terminating such a life. This is the way to inflict suffering on a life. Imprisonment, as a less serious punishment, cuts him off from having fellowship with others. This reversal of the life principle becomes then a suffering for him. From this we see that punishment is applied according to the principles of life.
With these two chief characteristics in mind, let us turn to the life of God. God is an organism of a higher order than human beings. He is naturally governed by this law of life. We can know God by the characteristics and distinctive features of His life. From this we can deduce whether or not God wants to have fellowship with man.


There are two kinds of religion: religion based on natural concepts and religion based on revelation. Natural religion starts with man as the center. He is the one that is seeking after God and studying about Him. What then is revelation religion? Revelation religion comes directly from God. He is the One who comes to reveal things to us. Man's thoughts are often useless fancies. God's revelation alone is trustworthy. Christianity is different from all other natural religions in that it is a religion that comes from revelation. Christianity begins from God. It is God who comes to seek out man, rather than man who seeks after God.
I will not try to persuade you to believe in Christianity or to read the Bible. I will only make a few suppositions. We will treat the subject in the same way as if we were solving a problem in geometry. We will start from the suppositions and then deduce our arguments step by step. We will examine our reasoning’s to see if they are sound and if our conclusions are logical. As in mathematics, with some problems we work forwards, while with others we work backwards. At any rate, in the end we should be able to tell whether or not a supposition is justified.

We have to make a few suppositions. The first one is that God exists. This in fact has been covered by us already. We have agreed that there is a God. He is a Being who has a purpose.
Second, we assume that God has a desire to reveal Himself to man. If God wants to reveal Himself to man and if He wants us to know Him, how does He do it? In what manner can He be made known to us? If He speaks to us through thunder or writes to us through lightning, we will not be able to comprehend His message. How then does God make Himself known to us?

If He is to reveal Himself and if He wants us to know Him, He necessarily must do it through human means. What then are the common ways that men communicate with one another? First, they do it through speaking and second through writing. All means of communication, whether telegraph, telephone, sign, or symbols, are all included in these two categories. If God is to manifest Himself, these are the only two means for Him to do so. For the present we set aside the aspect of speaking; we will see how God communicates with us through writing.
If God reveals Himself through writing, of all the volumes written by different people throughout the centuries, there must be one book which is divinely inspired. This is a very crucial test. If such a book exists, it proves not only the existence of God, but it contains His written revelation to us as well. Is there then such a divinely written book?
In the search for such a book, let us first mention a few basic principles. Suppose I want to order a book from a publisher. If I can tell him the name and author of the book, there will be no trouble getting it. If, however, I forget the name and author of the book, I can describe the characteristics of it to the publisher, such as the contents, size, color, binding, etc. The publisher will then search through all his books and locates the volume I want. God has one book in this universe. How do we find it? We have to know its characteristics first. If there is any book that has been written by God, it must meet certain conditions or have certain qualifications before one can say that it is from God.


Let me put forth a few propositions. If there is a book written by God, it must first of all mention God. It must tell you that it is from God and that its author is God. This is the first qualification. Second, it must carry a moral tone that is higher than what we commonly know. If it is a fabrication, it can at the most be on the same level as man. Third, if there is such a divine book, it must tell us about the past and the future of this world. Only God knows clearly what occurred in the past and what will happen in the future. Only by telling us these matters will we know Him as God. Fourth, this book must be simple and available so that all may be able to secure and understand it. If there were only one such book in the world, then only a very few people would be able to see it. It would not pass the test unless it is a book accessible to everyone. In the United States there is a group of people who claim to have a book from God. It is engraved in gold and contains only twelve pages. Such a book then would not be accessible to the Chinese. God would never write to us a book at which we could not look.
Now the matter is simplified. Let us repeat these four conditions once more. (1) If such a book exists, it must tell us explicitly that its author is God. (2) It must carry a high tone of morality. (3) It must give a detailed description of the past and the future of the universe. (4) It must be available. Let us pick out some of the more important writings throughout human civilization and check them against these qualifications to see if any meets our requirements.

We will start from books that are generally considered to be good. Let us take the Chinese classics of Confucius. They are immediately disqualified under the first requirement, for none of them claims to be written by God. They do have a high tone of morality, but they fail to give the origin and destiny of the world, the universe, and man. This does not mean that they are worthless books; it means that they do not contain the qualifications we want. They are not what we are looking for.
Let us go to the classics of other cultures. There are numerous volumes of famous writings, but none of them passes the first test. They are all clearly written by man. They may be masterpieces in philosophy or morality, but they are not written by God, nor are they divinely inspired. We have to set them aside.
There is a book in India called the Rig-Veda. It once dominated Hinduism. However, it does not claim to be written by God.
Another book called the Avesta, written by a Persian named Zoroaster, is also extremely influential in the Middle East. It does not claim to be from God either. Moreover, its moral tone is not especially commendable.
Let us come to the Koran of Mohammedanism. This is the closest one we can find. It tells us that it comes from God; it meets the first requirement. However, it does not fulfill the second requirement, for its moral tone is too low. The heaven it describes is full of lusts and flesh. God could never write a book with such licentiousness and immorality. Hence, this book does not pass the test of morality.


After searching through all the books, you have to come finally to the Bible. If God desires to communicate with man, and if He does so through writing, then this is the only book that can pass the four tests. Hence, this must be the book God has for man.
What does this book say? In the books of the law in the Old Testament, it says, "Thus said the Lord," at least five hundred times. Other books in the Old Testament repeat the phrase about seven hundred times. In addition to the references in the New Testament to the speaking of God, the Bible has more than two thousand claims of divine origin. If God has no intention of communicating with man, we can forget about this book. But if He does communicate with man through writing, then this book has to be of immense value. Can you find another book where God is claimed as its author that many times?
We have to see if the Bible meets the second qualification. Let us take a look at its moral tone. Everyone who has studied this book confesses that it carries the highest moral standard. Even the sins of the noblest persons are recorded and condemned without mercy. Once a strong opposer of the Bible was asked by his son, "Why are you so strong against the Bible?" He answered, "If I do not condemn it, it will condemn me." This book does not let us get by easily. The human concept is that all sexual acts outside marriage are considered as fornication. The Bible, however, says that even an evil thought is fornication. Human morality condemns an act of killing as murder, but the Bible condemns a slight hatred in the heart as murder.
We consider a man who lets his enemy get by without paying vengeance as forgiving. But the Bible charges man to love his enemy. How high is its moral tone and how low we are before its standards! You cannot help but admit that it presents the best ethical code for humanity.

Furthermore, this book describes in detail the past and future of the universe. Once a friend told me that he could believe in everything the Bible says except the parts in Genesis and Revelation where it talks about the origin and destiny of the heavens and earth. I told him that if this is indeed a book from God, it must, of necessity, contain these matters. If the Bible did not contain Genesis and Revelation, it would be the same as any other book, and we would have to look for another book; it would not be the one we want. But the past condition of the world and its future destiny are recorded here. Hence, the third qualification is also met.


What is the circulation of such a book? Last year (1935), more than two hundred million copies were sold. Can you name another book that has such a high circulation rate? This statistic, moreover, is not limited to just last year; every year the number has remained approximately the same. In one sense this book is very popular. In another sense it is like a thorn in your hand; it pierces you. This book gives you a headache. It creates an unspeakable uneasiness within man. It even causes man to oppose it. In spite of this, its annual sales are still over two hundred million.
Furthermore, this book is translated into more than seven hundred twenty languages. In every country and among every race, there is a translation of this unique book. It is extremely easy for anyone to obtain a Bible anywhere in the world. If the Rig-Veda were God's book, then more than half of the world would perish due to a failure in obtaining it. Even if you put the Rig-Veda in my hand, I would still be unable to understand it. If only the educated ones can contact God, then I am destined to go to hell. If only the Indians have the opportunity, we Chinese, as well as other races, are out of hope. If God speaks through the Rig-Veda, then where can we find that book? Maybe we can only find the original copy in the London Museum. And even that may not contain the original meaning of God's revelation to man.

This is not all. The Bible contains sixty-six books and it is divided into the Old and New Testaments. It was written by no less than thirty people. The span from the time the first book was written to the time when the last book was finished is more than sixteen hundred years. The places where they were written are also different. Some were written in Babylon, some in Italy, some at one end of Asia Minor, others at the other end of the Mediterranean. Furthermore, the writers themselves differed in their backgrounds. Some were lawyers; some were fishermen. There were princes, and there were shepherds. All these writings by men of different backgrounds, languages, environments, and periods are put together. The amazing thing is that it is still a complete book.
All those who have had some experience of editing know that in order to put together a few articles written by different authors, it is necessary for the authors to be of comparable level of academic achievements and viewpoints. Even when the academic standard and viewpoints are similar, there will still be conflicts and contradictions when you put five or six articles together. But the Bible, though complex in contents, contains history, poetry, laws, prophecies, biographies, and doctrines and was written by so many different ones at different times and under different circumstances, yet when you put them together, they surprisingly run as one continuous volume. There is no conflict or contradiction. They are written in one breath.


If you read this book carefully, you have to admit that God's hand is behind all the writings. More than thirty people of varied backgrounds and ideas in different times and places wrote these sixty-six books. When you group them up, they link together as if they were written by one individual. Genesis was written about fifteen hundred years before Christ, and Revelation was written ninety-five years after Christ. There is a time span of sixteen hundred years. One talks about the beginning while the other projects the end of the world. Yet whatever begins in Genesis is concluded in Revelation. This amazing feature cannot be explained in human terms. Every word of it has to be written by God through man. God is the motivating One behind the whole composition.

There is another remarkable thing about this book. In itself it is a book that gives life. Yet countless numbers of people have lost their lives for its sake. There was a time when anyone who held this book in his hand would immediately be put to death. The most powerful empire in history was the Roman Empire. There was a time when this empire summoned all its forces to destroy this book. Everyone who possessed it would be inhumanly persecuted and later killed or burned. They wiped out thousands of people and burned countless copies of the Bible. They even set up a monument at a place where they killed Christians. On it was the inscription: "Christianity is buried here." They thought that when they had burned all the Bibles and removed all the Christians, they would see Christianity lying there beneath their feet. But it was not long after that when the Bible came back again. Even in a country like England, which has already accepted Christianity as its state religion, you can still find tombs of martyrs for Christ if you visit different places there. Here and there you can find places where the Bible was once burned. Or you may come across a tombstone that tells you that such and such a person tried so hard and wrote so many books in his life to oppose the Bible. One place may tell you that the Bible was once burned there, and another place may tell you that Christians were once killed there. One signpost may point you to a statue of martyrdom, and another may point to a site of Bible burning.
Why is it that so many people have tried so hard to oppose this book? Why is it that men would pass by other books, but would either oppose this book with every fiber of their being or would put their whole life to the stake for it? There must be something extraordinary here. Even if you do not believe that this is God's word, you have to admit that there is something unusual about this book.


This book seems to be very simple and easy. If you consider it from the historical point of view, it tells the origin of the universe, the earth, the plants, human beings, how they established their kingdoms, and how they will eventually end. This is all. There is nothing special about it. Yet it has been handed from generation to generation for centuries. Today it is still with us. Moreover, if you do not confess that it is truth, you have to conclude that it is false. You can disregard many books, but you cannot ignore this book. Nor will it ignore you. It will not let you go. It demands a verdict from you. It will not pass you by.

Another remarkable thing about this book is that almost half of it is prophecy. Among the prophecies, almost half of them are fulfilled. The other half is for the future and await fulfillment. For example, it predicted the fate of the nations of Moab and Ammon and of the cities of Tyre and Sidon. Today when people talk about big cities, they mention London and Shanghai. Then it was Tyre and Sidon. They were two chief cities of the ancient world. The prophecies concerning these two cities were all fulfilled. Once I was in the Middle East. For some reason I did not visit those two places. However, I bought two pictures of those cities. It amazed me when I looked at those pictures. I could not help but believe in the Bible. It was prophesied that if these two metropolitan cities did not repent, they would be destroyed and devastated. Their land would become hills of rocks and pebbles where fishermen would come to dry their nets. In the pictures that I bought, there was nothing but fishing boats and open nets on the shore. This is only one small fact that proves the reliability of biblical prophecy.
If you compare past events with the prophecies in the Bible, you will find that they all correspond one with another. For another example, take the birth of Christ. Isaiah prophesied concerning a virgin with child a few hundred years before Christ actually came. Later, He was born indeed of the Virgin Mary. The prophecy was accurately fulfilled. As the prophecies concerning the past have been fulfilled, so the prophecies concerning the future must also be fulfilled.

If God desires to communicate with man, He must do so through common human channels of communication. He must use the human language or human writings. In other words, there must be a book in the world that is a direct revelation from God. If such a book does exist, it must contain the four criteria we mentioned. Now we can say that such a book is found. This book tells us that God desires to have fellowship with us. He speaks to us through this book. Through it God is no longer an unknown Being. We can now know Him. This book is the Bible. I hope all of you will read it .



THIS IS A SERIOUS MATER, IS HE CRAZY? A LUNATIC? A LIAR? PLEASE YOU’RE VERIDICT



God desires to reveal Himself to us. He does so through means that are comprehensible to man. These are namely written and spoken language. We have seen how God reveals Himself through writing. Now we want to take a look at His revelation through speaking.
Suppose that you have had correspondence with a person for many years; however, you have never seen him. Naturally, you would want to know him more by having some direct acquaintance with him. Full understanding of someone cannot be achieved merely through writing. Direct contact gives a better chance. It seems as if communication through speech is of a more intimate and thorough nature than writing. When spoken language is added to written language, communication becomes enhanced. If you take away either of the two, you have a gap. Of course, if you take away both, communication is completely voided. Effective communication is always carried out by these two means.
If God's intention is to reveal Him to us, He must of necessity do so through speaking. But how does God speak? Does He trumpet from the heavens? If so, we would all be frightened to death. We would all run away. No one would dare to listen. There is a chasm between Him and us. He, being so high and great, would drive us away from His holiness. How then does He speak?
THE WINTER ON THE MOUNTAIN
let me relate to you a story. One winter I was staying on the mountain Lu-shan, recovering from an illness. It was immediately after the war, and there was practically no one living on the mountain. In the vicinity of my dwelling, one could hardly see anyone all day long. I am a quiet person by nature. This kind of environment was very appealing to me. Not only was it quiet there, but the weather was cold as well. From morning till dusk, all I saw was a boy who came three times to deliver my meals. At the beginning I was quite at ease. But after a while, even a person like