Harry Wu Doubts Falon Gong Claim but not Organ Market
Dissident Harry Wu doubts Falon Gong claims, but agrees that the organs of executed prisoners are indeed sold in China. He says that some Falon Gong witnesses have refused to meet with him, which is interesting, but may be a matter of fear for safety or other concerns. He claims that he sent in people to look for "concentration camps" holding Falun Gong and came up empty. But this isn't the same as a thorough investigation. Moreover, there is no doubt that Falun Gong are being imprisoned en masse. And it would be almost impossible to witness organ harvesting first hand at an organ procurement hospital.
As I stated in my article and as agreed by David Matas and David Kilgour, the Matas/Kilgour report does not prove guilt. But it is more than enough to justify a thorough and independent investigation with guarantees of safety for witnesses. Indeed, it seems to me that the advertised short waiting periods alone make an independent and thorough investigation a matter of urgent human rights concern.
A story in the San Francisco Chronicle illustrates how short the process can be. Eric De Leon arrived in Shanghais on March 2, and was told a new liver was available for him on March 14. (Another part of the problem is the ready willingness of some desperate people to dump important ethical principles. Thus, De Leon is indifferent to the source of his new and paid for liver, as my wife Debra J. Saunders points out in this excellent column on organ sales in China, "American Vampire.")
If China is engaged in such a vast evil, the world needs to know about it. Only a concerted investigation by people with the real power to dig out the truth can put this matter to rest.
posted by Wesley J. Smith @ 12:23 PM
16 Comments
16 Comments:
Falun Gong's claim on organ wait time is very misleading, if not false.
According to 1995-2004 clincal data compiled by USTransplant.org:
http://www.ustransplant.org/annual_reports/current/105_dh.htm
- USA with 1/4 of China's population, performs over twice as many liver transplants yearly (10,000 in 2004.)
- 2004 data shows top 10% of wait list average 10 day wait
- 2004 data shows top 25% of wait list average 43 day wait
- Majority of median wait time, for all type of transplantation, do not exceed one year.
I have also found a transplant center in US that advertise very short wait, and the reason given is "no competition for organ":
http://www.lifepoint-sc.org/articles/theheartofthematter.html
"At MUSC, heart transplant patients on average wait about 2 1/2 months for a heart, Van Bakel said. Nationally, he said, the average wait time is about eight months."
Mr. Wesley, here's a translation of Harry Wu's open letter. Please judge for yourself how thorough Wu's investigation was:
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm
"From March 12, the investigators canvassed the entire Sujiatun area. On March 17, the investigators visited two military barracks in Sujiatun. On March 27, the investigators secretly visited the Chinese Medical Blood Clotting Treatment Center in Sujiatun. On March 29, the investigators went to the Kongjiashan prison near Sujiatun. None of the aforementioned investigations revealed any trace of the concentration camp. The investigators provided me with photographs and written reports on their investigation and results on March 15, 17, 27, 29, 30 and April 4."
So, Bobby: What is your interest in this?
Wu's letter is interesting, but not at all dispositive. A thorough investigationis called for. The Chinese have nothing to lose and everything to gain by an independent investigation with access to Falun Gong prisoners and all hospitals and medical personnel involved in organ transplantation.
Mr. Smith, my interest in no way change the facts of this case.
But if you must know, I'm a nobody technolgy worker in Seattle, and became intensely interested in this after someone handed me a flyer in Chinatown 4 months ago - because when I looked into this allegation, I found many things wrong with it.
Hon. Nowak of UNHRC had decided on no-action after investigating, two US government investigation.
I'm afraid China will never be cleared of "Ausschwitz" in some folk's mind. Never mind the seriousness of the charge, never mind "innocent until proven guilty", seems to some, evidence doesn't matter.
Mr. Smith, do you know the stroke hospital Falun Gong finally settled on (the camp moved 3 times in 10 days according to Epoch Times) is a joint venture with a company affaliated with the Malaysian government?
Malay officials have documented prior year visit; the place has been open to public for years.
Mr. Fletcher: The waiting period comes from China itself. I have linked to a SF Chronicle story in which a man was matched for a liver in less than two weeks. I also went to your WEB site where you argue that the Tiannamen Massacre was a myth.
So, feel free to comment, but it strikes me that you are an apologist for the PRC. Which is fine. But the civilized world should demand an independent, impartial, investigation.
Mr. Smith, in my Tiananmen blog I cited an article from Columbia Journal Review regarding passive journalism, and inaccuracy in our reporting of TAM.
I hope you will read it.
As to independent, impartial investigation, I'd like to offer you an exerpt from the CECC breif cited previousely:
"[Thomas Lum of CRS] listed three reasons for FLG to have brought on the allegations accusing the Chinese government to be targeting FLG practitioners specifically in order to harvest their organs.
The first is political: opponents of China would embrace this latest shocking FLG claim as yet another wedge against the CCP, reaffirming the impression that the Party is both autocratic and intolerant toward its own citizens. For example, The National Review, The Toronto Times, and The Wall Street Journal all have published editorials denouncing China for these practices, taking the Matas-Kilgour report and The Epoch Times, the FLG affiliate, reports as proof.
Second, Lum says, these claims are also an act of desperation. Unlike the Tibetan or Protestant movements in China, FLG is facing media saturation in the international community. Sensational stories such as Sujiatun and targeted genocide amount to easily ingestible information that is quickly disseminated simply by virtue of their shock factor. The exposure FLG has received in response to these allegations has been phenomenal regardless of their veracity.
Lum’s third reason is the most important one, for it exposes a weakness that Matas and Kilgour exploit in their report: these allegations, in light of China’s atrocious human rights record, especially with respect to its prisoners, are incredibly hard to disprove. Organ harvesting of executed prisoners has been happening in China for decades; the government has even admitted to it and passed legislation in response.
Set within this gruesome (and factual) backdrop, these allegations are correct insofar as the CCP has indeed practiced organ harvesting. However, these FLG claims, as Matas and Kilgour fail to observe, are not true in the sense that the Chinese government is not specifically targeting FLG as a group.
Bobby, be careful. That wasn't a CECC brief you cited; that was a report for Sen. Dianne Feinstein where one of her staffers apparently talked to two people (one of whom was Lum). It was Lum's view only, not that of the CECC.
Nice try.
Even the open letter from Wu has a gaping hole in it: his people did not see the Sujiatun hospital in question for over three weeks after the story broke. That's plenty of time to move everyone out and clean up the facility.
Oh, and before you snipe about moving 6,000 people in three weeks, your average commuter rail system can move several times that number in one day.
D.J. Thanks. My understanding is that Senator Feinstein's husband has extensive business dealings with China, which may not be irrelevant.
The person authoring the Feinstein brief was also almost certainly a summer intern, not a regular staffer; the report itself, although well written, suffers from some internal contradictions, I think. And the writer did him/herself no favor by admitting a bit of a flip attitude about the whole thing ("look at the wonders you can accomplish when you Care. Wow.")
But more importantly, experts like Lum don't cover themselves in glory either; while Mr. Fletcher may dispute Tiananmen, most of the world does not, and unless Lum does, he's being a little disingenuous to say "reaffirming the impression that the Party is both autocratic and intolerant toward its own citizens" is a reason, in and of itself, to cast doubt on the K-M report. If someday CCP officials are brought to trial for Tiananmen, I'll have more confidence they're not hiding anything about other alleged crimes. Until then, I won't.
DJ, thank you for the clarification. And please do comment on the portion where CECC research associate Emma Ashburn stated:
"the Matas-Kilgour report really “offered nothing new” in terms of evidence on the matter of organ harvesting. The evidence they did collect, namely the phone calls and testimonies, were dubious in their objectivity."
DJ, do you have any comments on Harry Wu's report that was released subsquent to his open letter?
http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492
"...[Analysis & Opinion]
Without concrete and substantiated evidence, such reports are not credible. Also, the description of "underground concentration camp" is in conflict with what Peter and Annie said. I spent 19 years as a political prisoner in China's forced labor camps and have experienced many transfers. No transfer occurred like the one described.
III. Conclusion
1) No concrete or substantiated evidence, such as documents or photos, have been provided to support the witness' statements.
2) Both Annie and Peter, who are now in the US, refuse to reveal their real names despite that fact that they no longer reside in China. This makes it difficult for the international community to corroborate their testimonies and makes their statements less strong. Since they claim to have knowledge about thousands of people whose lives may be in danger it is essential that they be more open about who they are and what they know.
3) The claim that Falun Gong practitioners' live organs are being harvested is diverting attention from real, substantiated facts. China has been harvesting organs from executed prisoners for more than 20 years and this has been proven. This is an issue that the Falun Gong never mentions, and its allegations about live harvesting or reverse-organ donations remain unconfirmed.
4) The Chinese Communist Government is an evil regime that commits many atrocities including the persecution of the Falun Gong. However, the logic does follow that because the government has outlawed the spiritual group it has created Sujiatun and other concentration camps to kill and harvest the organs of live Falun Gong practitioners. Without proof this is not logical reasoning.
5) Those who doubt the existence of Sujiatun, including myself, should not be criticized as ¡°obstacles to the investigation¡± or be accused of "cooperating with Beijing".
6) Today, there is not much national or international attention to the Sujiatun issue. This does not imply that the international community does not value human rights. Nor does it mean that the world has been pressured by Beijing to remain silent, or that is has taken the side of the Communist regime. When I received Falun Gong's report, I personally arranged for Sujiatun to be investigated right away, include the hospital, Kangjiasan Prison and Jiutai Laojiao Camp. Officers and staff from the US embassy in Beijing and the US Consulate in Shenyang visited the Sujiatun site two times. Overseas media also sent reporters to investigate the case. These actions show that people treated the Sujiatun issue very seriously. However, the Falun Gong claims that "Sujiatun Auschwitz" exists have yet to substantiate and appear to be nothing more than political propaganda."
DJ, can your "rail system can move several times that number in one day" without detection? We are talking about 10,000 people including doctors, nurses, guards, hospital equipment, supply and ration - vanishing into thin air in not matter weeks, but days?
Harry Wu's analysis also answered your question, you should take a look.
On top of that, Mr. Lum of CRS appearantly worte another report stating US State Department's investigation of Sujiatun was initially in secret, long before the 3/21 consular visit.
Bob, do you understand the serious allegations put forth in the Kilgour-Matas report on organ harvesting targeting Falun Gong practitioners across China. ( http://investigation.go.saveinter.net ) The Chinese embassy has formulated a set of contradictions http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-10/44796.html —much shorter than yours. Most of it is unfounded and a direct attack on the authors of the report and the Falun Gong. China doesn’t provide any answers to these crimes. In fact the free world is still waiting for China to explain the 41,500 organ transplants unaccounted for (in the report). That is telling. Have the many Falun Gong practitioners who have disappeared in China become unwilling organ donors? Is that the explanation?
I find it unfortunate that Mr. Harry Wu's http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452 investigation in the North of China proved to be fruitless and that in turn his report is being used to discredit the Kilgour-Matas findings. Maybe his team should have gone there before March 9 when the story first broke in the Epoch Times. News reports confirm that after March 9th, the hospital site was cleaned up swiftly to hide all evidence. The army relocated the unwilling donors quickly overnight. Only 3 weeks later on did the Communist Party officials invite the free world to come and investigate. But oddly enough the regime has refused to grant visas to anyone who asked to investigate further. Meanwhile the US State Dept. was taken through a show tour--the regime being with them every step of the way but they (US) have kept the file opened and are still interested in the case.
http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452
It's worth mentioning that the Kilgour-Matas investigation team examined 18 pieces of evidence to draw their conclusions and that the hospital visited by the US State Dept. and Mr. Wu only accounts for a small portion of the report. Many hospitals were investigated, not just that one--so 99% of the report is not about that hospital. Moreover hospital staff openly admitted to the organ source being from the Falun Gong in 15 instances and these digital recordings have been well validated. Matas calls this practice a new from of evil on the planet. BTW the phone bills are available. China's bloody harvest
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=6a97d044-615a-496b-b7d6-e79e36636592
The K-M report has been well received in their travels to Brusels, Berlin, London, Washington DC with the Australian government is probing into the crimes Rudd said http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-23/45203.html Kilgour has met with rights organizations which are already paying close attention to this issue as is the UN. Meanwhile the K-M report is backed up by Dr. Allison’s report http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-7/44668.html , including Edward McMillan Scott’s visit http://clearharmony.net/articles/200606/33776.html to China confirming heaps of evidence that amounts to genocide.
It is high time that Communist China be made accountable for their crimes against humanity and for the free world to reassess their take on China. As I recall China was given the 2008 Olympics on the premise that their human rights record would improve. In my eyes the well documented persecution of Falun Gong is enough to disqualify them instantly along with the reports of large scale organ harvesting which would make their record stoop to a new low.
It’s time to quit the Party Bob! http://ninecommentaries.com
I looked up your site and the majority of median wait time exceeds one year and if it doesnt its very close to one year... Also, in 2004 10% of wait list average 10 days only for the liver so it is not a good representation... Other transplants take much more time... same thing for the 25% of wait list... Your information is misleading... The information in David Kilgour and David Matas' report is not false. It is credible and verified. They are not trying to mislead people, they are independant investigators and I am sure an international lawyer and a canadian politician would not want to ruin their reputation and lie about this issue. They are just concerned citizens who see the importance of acting during a crisis like this one and stopping these atrocities. Organ transplants in China skyrocketed since the persecution of Falun Gong began? Where do these organs come from? Why are you trying to slow down the investigation process?
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Timur, here’s what a brief from Senator Diane Feinstein, member of US Congressional Executive Commettee on China (thank you DJ for the clue), had to say:
“Specialist in Asian Affairs at the Congressional Research Service, Thomas Lum, noted that the evidence could have easily been distorted. The individuals calling the hospitals were all affiliated with FLG, and Lum said that it is unlikely for doctors and officials working for the state to casually divulge such sensitive and damaging information so easily.
Moreover, Lum’s efforts to contact both the Chinese journalist and doctor’s wife have been fruitless, as FLG members direct all communications toward these individuals and they often do not respond. Harry Wu, a longtime political activist known for his hardline anti-PRC views, announced on August 9, 2006 that he would challenge the allegations made by FLG about targeted organ harvesting, especially the claim about the Sujiatun concentration camp.
About the report, the South China Morning Post reports, “Mr. Wu, who has spent 15 years gathering evidence on the harvesting of organs from executed Chinese prisoners, said the information was based on the testimony of two witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information. He believed the reports were fabricated.” Wu had tried to follow up with the witnesses just as Lum had—to the same futility. In the face of these criticisms, including from even Wu, who formerly held friendly relations with FLG, all things considered the allegations FLG has made about a targeted campaign of state-sponsored genocide are most likely untrue.”
First of all, you have not answered my questions. Second of all, I have heard the statements of Harry Wu and some others. But even if the organ harvesting is not true (which I dont think is that hard to believe), there is still a whole lot of evidence that practitioners are being arrested and tortured in an effort to make them renounce their beliefs. "Over 100 torture methods have been used in detention centers, forced-labor camps, prisons, mental hospitals and brainwashing centers to force Falun Gong practitioners into renouncing their belief. Practitioners have been beaten with various objects and their private parts and sensitive areas have been shocked with electric batons carrying high voltages. Practitioners have been immersed in boiling water and shot with guns. Women of all ages are beaten, raped, gang raped and thrown into male cells. Practitioners are tied to a bed with their 4 limbs stretched. All of the victim¡¯s joints and muscles are pulled apart to the point of disability. Practitioners are handcuffed in various sitting and standing positions that prevent them from moving. They are put in cages in solitary confinement. They are hung on door frames. They are force fed with salt water, pepper juice, ethyl alcohol, drugs, water with feces and urine. They are burned, dragged, strangled and pushed to their deaths from buildings or cars. They are attacked by police dogs, poisonous snakes and scorpions. Pregnant women have died during forced abortions.
Many have been forced to leave their homes to escape persecution, with the result of broken families. Thousands of children have been orphaned as a result of their parents having been arrested or killed.
The horrific, brutal persecution of innocent Falun Gong practitioners has gone on for seven long years. All people of conscience must speak out to stop the Chinese Communist regime from continuing these horrendous crimes. These are crimes against all of humanity." (This was written by a friend named Donna Hope.)I just think this is just slowing the investigation process and a whole lot of lives are being killed because of it. Let us discover once and for all if the allegations are true. Personally, I think they are. Harry Wu investigated a week or 2 weeks later and they had the time to remove all evidence before that. Do not underestimate the Chinese Communist Party. They have used the army before to hide terrible tragedies from the people. Seriously what do you want Falun GOng practitioners to do? You want them to sit down and just ignore that their friends or relatives are being tortured and killed? You want them to just stop what they are doing? Maybe there was some exageration that was made by some practitioners, it is possible... Everybody can make mistakes, but they have done this peacefully with no violent actions. They have showed the world the power of faith and courage to face such brutal persecution and even when everybody doubted their claims, they continued. I still think their actions are whole heartedly justified. If you do not, I would like an explanation.
Best regards,
Timur
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